Curse

EragonSorceror · Mar 22, 2010, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

@EragonSorcerer, I'm absolutely NOT against farming in any way, I myself farm on occasion. What I am against is the direction the game has gone, and ANet's handling of the situation, which has placed a large focus on the false economy and virtual e-wealth, at the expense of the FUN of the game. If they re-balanced loot scaling and drops so that the average player had more of an incentive to do difficult missions and such, then more people would PLAY more of the game. Of course, obsessive farmers would farm and become more rich than before, but if GW has re-balanced loot as I mention, this would have less of an impact since the relative value is much lower.

Thank you for explaining. I agree with you that something should be changed in regards to farming+powertrading etc., but,as you can see, I don't think your solution is optimal. I'm also not sure if a truly grindless MMO can exist, or even one that meets your standards. I will admit that you have a few good ideas though.

And my thoughts on the GW economy debate: Just because there is a potentially unlimited supply of everything in Guild Wars doesn't mean that supply and demand will have no effect on them. Supply in this scenario simply refers to the amount that are in existence at any point in time. Food and paper are two things that, as long as we put time into creating them(farming, quite literally lol), we will never run out of. They still follow "real-world" economic rules. In fact, if you think about it, most things we buy are renewable. The only exceptions are things like original art by dead artists and petroleum based products(I'm sure there are a few other things, but I can't think of them right now).

UnChosen · Mar 22, 2010, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

As others have noted, this idea is self-defeating.

The reason that drops aren't worth anything is that they have been overfarmed. If you increase the drops, then there will be even more of those items flooding the market, making them even more worthless. In the end, all it will do is increase inventory cluttering.

It isn't about just plain increasing drops as much as BALANCING drops between areas.

Example: Frostmaw HM vs. FoW NM

Which one's harder? Frostmaw HM of course.
Which takes longer? Frostmaw HM
Need to go through explorable? Frostmaw HM

Reward? Frostmaw HM: 2 Gems + bag of junk. FoW NM: 3-4 shards + bag of junk.

Sigh...

Yelling @ Cats · Mar 22, 2010, 08:15 PM // 20:15

I find it funny, the people are are super "anti-grind" are the people who only care about the gold value of doing a dungeon/vanquish/whatever.

Turbo Ginsu · Mar 22, 2010, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

Pretty much this.

The whole "I SHOULD GET MORE ECTOS!" thing is just stupid. Nothing is "rewarding" in this game. Have an Obsidian Edge? Good for you, I have a collector item that does just as much, or possibly more damage since it is customized.

Same boat here. Nearly all of my toons run inexpensive items, all customized. Makes no sense to cut off your nose to spite your face. 20% extra is neat, might as well make use of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

I'll never understand people who play the game, and do things in game, for the sole purpose of getting gold so they can buy a weapon that they could have gotten for 5 collector items aside from a usually shitty looking skin.

I've had every rare skin there is. Not to waggle 'em, not to fulfil any other need than the one that says, "If it's there, I may as well aim for it." Then I sold em, and got back to the trusty inexpensive/collector items..

Too easy. Even so, I've done over about 20 more bosses since my last post on the matter of drop rates, and I think I got a non-max blue and a couple whites for my efforts. Silliness IMO. They're bosses, yet their minions are generally richer. Go figure.

Kaleban · Mar 22, 2010, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

I find it funny, the people are are super "anti-grind" are the people who only care about the gold value of doing a dungeon/vanquish/whatever.

I'm not super anti-grind either, as Eragon said its likely that balancing an MMO with no grind is close to impossible.

It seems you always miss the point/issue/meaning behind every post I make, whether this is intentional or not I have no idea.

Suffice to say, I think my earlier posts are relatively self-explanatory. In the event that you miss the simple points, I'll try to make them even simpler:

Most of the game is dead/empty

The reason in many cases is that the reward for doing an area is well below the reward for farming/grinding somewhere else much easier (i.e. a 2 hour dungeon giving junk, vs. spending two hours in Chaos Plains for several ectos)

One of the ways to make MORE of the game interesting and engaging is to change/up/balance the reward scale of various areas to attract players, such as drops exclusive to one area at a high or unique rate (i.e. ectos in UW) could be spread to the rest of the game world at a much lower rate, this would allow playing the game with a much reduced need to "farm"

Realize that with a level 20 cap achievable in short order means the majority of the game is spent on cosmetic customization, so the argument against it is an argument against a larger playerbase and ANet support.

I realize that the economy is likely an inescapable evil of MMOs with tradeable gear, and that the design philosophy of GW in particular like any other MMO is made to suck players in and keep them around, which grinding for "achievements" does.

But I contend that the economy is not intrinsically linked to the gameplay, and that the game could be made much more interesting and varied IF players felt they were rewarded for playing through quests and missions, and not farming vaettirs and raptors. And changing the drop system to encourage this would only be beneficial to the game.

Fay Vert · Mar 22, 2010, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riot Narita

After loot scaling:
-Solo farmers got hit.
-Power traders were unaffected, business as usual.
-Gold sellers got hit.

No!

After the loot nerf, gold sellers became a much bigger problem. The value of gold went up and made it far more profitable for the bots, which kept on doing what bots alwasy do, farm.

Gold sellers started going away some time later when ANet/NCSoft actually started banning them for a change!

Riot Narita · Mar 22, 2010, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

No!

After the loot nerf, gold sellers became a much bigger problem. The value of gold went up and made it far more profitable for the bots, which kept on doing what bots alwasy do, farm.

Gold sellers started going away some time later when ANet/NCSoft actually started banning them for a change!

Well then... Even less point in loot scaling.

Yelling @ Cats · Mar 22, 2010, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Most of the game is dead/empty

The reason in many cases is that the reward for doing an area is well below the reward for farming/grinding somewhere else much easier.

You think people don't do most of the game because it isn't "rewarding" enough? Is that really why you think people aren't waiting in line and joining PuGs to do Frost Gate?

No matter how "rewarding" a place is, people who are actually chasing after the virtual dream of e-wealth will still do the place with the least risk of failure and highest chance of reward. The dream you have of the entire game becoming populated with droves of people wanting to party with you is a delusion at best.

Of course, I readily admit that I can't even begin to grasp the people who do content solely for the amount of virtual e-wealth they get (which you seem to fall into). You are even more confusing since you seem to not even agree with yourself. You say you have a desire to play everywhere in the game, yet want "phat lewt" no matter where you go. I can't for the life of me understand why you just don't do the places that you want to do. Are you letting the temptations of an equally-powered-yet-expensive skinned weapon drive you away from places you want to do? I just don't f'ing understand you at all.

Tenebrae · Mar 22, 2010, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

It isn't about just plain increasing drops as much as BALANCING drops between areas.

Example: Frostmaw HM vs. FoW NM

Which one's harder? Frostmaw HM of course.
Which takes longer? Frostmaw HM
Need to go through explorable? Frostmaw HM

Reward? Frostmaw HM: 2 Gems + bag of junk. FoW NM: 3-4 shards + bag of junk.

Sigh...

Post full of win.

Dungeons End chest should give 2 rare materials + <number of levels> gold drops (x2 in HM) or something like that . The existance of dungeon runners doesnt justify non balacing the rewards and thats it.

PS: I forgot , and for god sake , those chests revealed with Light of deldrimor .... 42g ...... REALLY ? i mean REALLY ? taking a bloody slot just to reveal some lvl 24 allies and some chests that give ...... 42-200g and a tiny % of a rare mat ? ooooo CMON ! -.-

Yelling @ Cats · Mar 22, 2010, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

But I contend that the economy is not intrinsically linked to the gameplay, and that the game could be made much more interesting and varied IF players felt they were rewarded for playing through quests and missions, and not farming vaettirs and raptors. And changing the drop system to encourage this would only be beneficial to the game.

I think you really should stop using "reward". People's "reward" for playing the game is enjoyment and having fun. Nobody is "rewarded" for having e-wealth in this game. Nobody with over 9000 ectos is any better than someone with 1 ecto. The people who farm like mad aren't rewarded with anything.

I'm still struggling to grasp your thought process. I'm thinking it is just an elaborate troll.

Deatgs Corrupter · Mar 22, 2010, 09:33 PM // 21:33

lol i have to laugh at mirolos and his shit theory covered by elaborate words which create a sense that he actually understands....
and give kudos to kalebam for good use of /facepalm.
@neo; he wasn't talking about obsi...and anyway the only tjhing peope strive for in this game are cosmetics, they grind for cosmetics....what happened to no grind.
@targen; nice stats man especially like the info on minimum price did not know a-net set a floor price

The Drunkard · Mar 22, 2010, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

I think you really should stop using "reward". People's "reward" for playing the game is enjoyment and having fun. Nobody is "rewarded" for having e-wealth in this game. Nobody with over 9000 ectos is any better than someone with 1 ecto. The people who farm like mad aren't rewarded with anything.

I'm still struggling to grasp your thought process. I'm thinking it is just an elaborate troll.

I think you might want to step back and look at the big picture...

GW is a dress-up game; stats on the weapons aren't important compared to other mmos. Where other games reward players with strong weapons after clearing an area, GW rewards players with a pretty skin. So you max out early your equipment and beat the game...now what? You have three options:
A) move on to pvp
B) Title grind
C) farm for cash to buy pretty skins.
That's it, there's no "elite" weapon that you can get from farming an area, just a pretty skin. Some people might be content with the stuff that they have, but now they're left with two options- title grind or pvp, which do not require a lot of cash compared to buying weapons. When people can't afford the pretty skins unless using gimicky farms/SCs because of lootscaling and other bot related farming nerfs, they are left with two other options (both become pretty boring after a while.)
I'm not advocating that everyone should be able to afford FoW, but that GW keeps their items inflated and actually FIX the bot problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riot Narita

What if they did remove loot scaling? The game and its economy would be back to what it was before... big deal, we'd simply go back to a time when I (personally) didn't see any problem. Would it be so bad? The numbers would change, but I figure the relative values and time needed would stay pretty much the same. BUT people could get rich by farming again ("playing the game"), as well as power trading.

Prices will never return to their original form (you have inscriptions to thank for that), and only the high-end items will rise. GW1's economy cannot be fixed at this point, hopefully Anet's learned from it's mistakes in GW1 so that GW2 doesn't turn out to be a mess of a game.

Yelling @ Cats · Mar 22, 2010, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

I think you might want to step back and look at the big picture...

GW is a dress-up game; stats on the weapons aren't important compared to other mmos. Where other games reward players with strong weapons after clearing an area, GW rewards players with a pretty skin. So you max out early your equipment and beat the game...now what? You have three options:
A) move on to pvp
B) Title grind
C) farm for cash to buy pretty skins.
That's it, there's no "elite" weapon that you can get from farming an area, just a pretty skin. Some people might be content with the stuff that they have, but now they're left with two options- title grind or pvp, which do not require a lot of cash compared to buying weapons. When people can't afford the pretty skins unless using gimicky farms/SCs because of lootscaling and other bot related farming nerfs, they are left with two other options (both become pretty boring after a while.)
I'm not advocating that everyone should be able to afford FoW, but that GW keeps their items inflated and actually FIX the bot problem.

Even though I disagree with you in general...

The "GIVE US MORE ECTOS STUPID ANET" crowd just wants to completely remove C.

Failban is saying "I want to do Frostmaws HM and get more loot than FoW". If he wants to do Frostmaws HM, then he should do Frostmaws HM.

I'm failing to grasp the "I want to do X, but I won't do X because Y offers more gold". If you want to f'ing do X, then do X. Don't petition so that you can do X and get more gold than doing Y.

Kaleban · Mar 23, 2010, 01:27 AM // 01:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

Failban is saying "I want to do Frostmaws HM and get more loot than FoW". If he wants to do Frostmaws HM, then he should do Frostmaws HM.

Perhaps you should stop putting words into others' mouths, take a deep breath and actually try to grasp the point you're arguing before engaging your jaw?

Quote:

I'm failing to grasp the "I want to do X, but I won't do X because Y offers more gold". If you want to f'ing do X, then do X. Don't petition so that you can do X and get more gold than doing Y.

Its not about me, I'm not so arrogant as you are to believe that ANet would cater to a single player.

I am looking at the big picture, about the behaviour of the entire playerbase as a whole. There is a large group that still play PvE and have been doing so for the last four and a half years. Why then are all the outposts barren wastelands? Because the largest contingent of PvE players restrict themselves to playing areas with the greatest reward, as any human with a limited amount of free time is likely to do, especially considering they've seen the rest of the game.

People are reward motivated, just look up Pavlov's Dog on Wiki, or go read a Psychology 101 text. A game like GW (and most MMOs and RPGs) are reward motivated, especially ones that allow replay of content ad nauseum. I can't believe that I have to explain stuff like this, but apparently you're too thickheaded to understand.

Certain areas of GW have much larger reward/time ratios than others (i.e. DoA, UW, FoW, etc.) leaving fully 95% of the game dead. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that by making other areas also fiscally rewarding that they would then be played more often.

As a simplistic example:

UW monster has 2%-8% (w/e) to drop an ecto
Maguuma monster has 0.02%-0.08% to drop an ecto

You have to slaughter a LOT more monsters in Maguuma to get the same reward as UW, but you don't have to pay the 1k gold entry and they're easier to kill. ANet could tweak the numbers so that a player playing non-UW would take two to three times as long to gain the same number of ectos, but in the long run this would open up more of the game to players, both solo and guild affiliated, and possibly make it more noob friendly as well, given that the population of various outposts may increase as well.

The above is just one example, for your simple mind I am NOT advocating free FoW armor for all. You and others REALLY need to quit beating that dead horse my friend.

Instead of being an obstinate, stubborn mule, try realizing the causes behind the dearth of players in most of the game, and how best to entice players to migrate to these deserted outposts. Its as simple as making it more rewarding, something you and others seem unable or unwilling to grasp or accept.

Yelling @ Cats · Mar 23, 2010, 03:56 AM // 03:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Why then are all the outposts barren wastelands?

Because 95% of the game is completable with henchmen, all PuG players have the mental capacity of Jello, and most of the game is boring?

Do you really think people are going to magically start playing in Maguuma if there's a .08% chance of an ecto drop?

Gun Pierson · Mar 23, 2010, 08:45 AM // 08:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yelling @ Cats

I think you really should stop using "reward". People's "reward" for playing the game is enjoyment and having fun. Nobody is "rewarded" for having e-wealth in this game. Nobody with over 9000 ectos is any better than someone with 1 ecto. The people who farm like mad aren't rewarded with anything.

I'm still struggling to grasp your thought process. I'm thinking it is just an elaborate troll.

No he's not an elaborate troll, he has a serious point and it's the reason why several of my friends have left GW for other games because it's not rewarding enough anymore and nothing is done about it.

People's reward in PvP is beating a team of real humans, which is a dynamic and changing opponent. In PvE the reward comes from progressing your character. A part of that progression is cool loot and gear.

This is not about ectos. The popularity of ectos is just a side effect of the real problem and the money cap doesn't help that either.

I'll give only one example how to make a dungeon interesting and in this case I'll add something for the puggers too: In Dungeon X, an elite armor can be found (5 parts and for every class a different look). The creeps only drop parts of the armours if a complete human team plays the dungeon. Replayability and trade guaranteed.

What do people do to get an elite armor they can just craft? They make money by powertrading or farming ectos, and craft the armor. It would be more interesting to play for the armour and exchange/buy parts from other players to complete a set. It's a game mechanic I saw in Titan Quest (Diablo clone) and it's great fun.

Bryant Again · Mar 23, 2010, 09:17 AM // 09:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

First, increase the drops for everybody. Its time that players felt rewarded for their efforts, along with a player being able to, say get a set of FoW armor without having to farm areas, a process that would take years. This is something that could be implemented now, and I can't think of a reason why anyone would complain barring the uber-rich power traders with stacks of ectos, but no one really cares about those jerks anyways!

It's the argument where both sides are right:
"It just looks different, there's no reason to bar it from anyone."
"It's rarity is all it has going for it, best to leave it that way."

I personally fall under the latter argument. Items that do provide benefits or effects should be attainable by the player within reason, but things that only change your appearance should be a bit harder to reach. It was like the older days in GW where a person with a suit of FoW made everyone's jaws drop to the floor: that should be part of vanity items!

But there's also that feeling of reward: as seen in this glorious episode of Zero Punctuation, a grilled cheese sandwich made out of thin air with zero effort is not going to taste anywhere near as satisfying and victorious as one that took a hell of a lot of work to do.

I personally would love to see a huge and epic as hell quest chain in GW2 that rewards you with either a suit of armor or awesome looking sword. That would be an awesome gem to hold onto.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Second, and this is probably more of a GW2 thing, but call it split-level design for lack of a better term. Take a dungeon, designed for 4 players with an average time to complete of 1 hour. Then design an "alternate" mode that allows 8 players to play, and adjust monster difficulty so that the average time to complete is 30 minutes. Additionally, make the drops scale so that you get the same drops per time regardless of which way you play (i.e. the 4 player team would see double the drops but take twice as long as the 8 player team).

This way, even if you could only play by yourself and three heroes, you could do the dungeon, while organized guilds with lots of active players could play full 8 player teams.

Based on very old interviews, this sounds a bit like what ANet had stated i.e. scaling areas/dungeons/etc. based off of party size: a team of 2 entering an area would have a very different experience than a team of 4. I just hope they stick to that, and if I heard wrong...well, I sure hope I didn't...

Quick side note:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

No he's not an elaborate troll, he has a serious point and it's the reason why several of my friends have left GW for other games because it's not rewarding enough anymore and nothing is done about it.

So? PvE was never meant to have endgame. You beat the campaign, you're done.

Gun Pierson · Mar 23, 2010, 10:05 AM // 10:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

So? PvE was never meant to have endgame. You beat the campaign, you're done.

Which is a big problem if you have a large PvE playerbase and you don't provide or come up with PvE endgame content.

You should notice the contradiction and fail on Anet's part in that sentence itself: 'PvE was never meant to have endgame'.

Bryant Again · Mar 23, 2010, 10:30 AM // 10:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

Which is a big problem if you have a large PvE playerbase and you don't provide or come up with PvE endgame content.

As I just said: PvE wasn't supposed to have an endgame. That's like advocating for the Legend of Zelda - or pretty much any single player game - to have an endgame.

PvE was Story Mode. You complete the story, you are set; you've beaten the game. Once you've read a book you can hope for a sequel, but that's about it. When you buy an apple you can't complain that it doesn't taste enough like an orange.

Turbo Ginsu · Mar 23, 2010, 10:42 AM // 10:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

As I just said: PvE wasn't supposed to have an endgame. That's like advocating for the Legend of Zelda - or pretty much any single player game - to have an endgame.

Funny you mention that. I bought Zelda the day it came out, nes, then snes, and it has endgame. Random World FTW.